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Am I in the right place?

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wiredup View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiredup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 12:31am
[QUOTE=helado] Example 1:  You hold Vanguard 500 Admiral shares for your clients large cap position.  It has an ER of .05%.  Fidelity decides to go all "loss leader" on Vanguard and start charging .02% for it's SPARTAN S&P 500 index fund.  You have a $3 million client that 3 years down the road alleges that you continued to hold the Vanguard fund instead of trading to the Fidelity fund that would've saved him money, all so you wouldn't have to pay the ticket charges for the trade.  How do you defend that?  


Based on not wanting to have the client pay a very large LTCG on the money I invested for him on March 9th, 2009.... Because I'm a fucking genius! I figured $900 in ER's outweighed the 15% on $2mm in gains.

Example 2:  You hold a 12 fund portfolio of ETFs for your clients in a 50/50 allocation.  The market tanks 2 years from now and your clients are down anywhere from 10 - 25%.  One of your clients goes to see an attorney because he is pissed that he lost money (yes, this happens ALL the time).  That attorney sees that you pay these costs for you clients, and decide to allege that you STUBBORNLY held those same ETFs, even though the market was tanking, and you should've known better and "gotten your client off the tracks" before it bottomed out.  How do you defend that?  


Because we are following a long term strategy based on their ISP that is outlined here, here and here. Said client is in the top tax bracket and on numerous occasions documented here, here and here didn't want to sell or rebalance on numerous occasions because the market was up and didn't want to pay taxes on the gains just yet.

Example 3: You hold PIMCO Total Return fund for your clients.  The fund has been lagging the benchmark for about a year now.  You continue to hold it because Bill Gross is the bond king, active management usually wins with fixed income, and you aren't ready to give the fund the boot quite yet.  However, 2 more years go by, and Bill Gross continues to lag the benchmark by 1% annually.  You now have lots of clients that have lagged a simple bond index by 1% a year for 3 years, AND the MAJORITY of PIMCO Total Return's peer funds have not only beaten it, but beaten the index as well.  Your client then goes to an attorney, and they allege that you didn't want to dump the fund even though it lagged, and lagged, and lagged because YOU didn't want to eat the transaction costs.  


How fucking dare you disrespect PTTAX! It's the backbone of this fucking country and is a symbol for the very blanket of freedom that you get to sleep under at night. I don't remember the douchebags name who called me a soulless monster for recommending a client sell it and rebalance it must, but I'm sure he must be dating or blowing the fund manager, Bruce Jenner's doppelgänger.

These 3 scenarios all get worse if that attorney puts an ad in your local newspaper asking your clients to contact him/her regarding a lawsuit about you taking advantage of them for your own paycheck.

In every scenario above, you have no defense.  However, if the CLIENT pays the cost of the transaction, you have absolutely ZERO conflict of interest when it comes to what fund to hold.  You can say "buying this fund over that fund, or this ETF over that fund, etc. doesn't affect me WHATSOEVER, so I am only doing what I think is best for you."

THIS IS OUR INDUSTRY.  Every other fucking cock sucking thing you do has to be document, document, document and cover your fucking ass so some jerkoff ambulance chasing attorney can't link up with some whiny ass client that thinks his advisor should pay for his losses because the S&P 500 shit the bed 30%.  

It is, what it is.

Edited by wiredup - Sep/05/2014 at 12:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 12:41am
What if they are qualified accounts and you can't use capital gains taxes as a justification?  

Wait, even if you CAN use it as a justification, can you PROVE that your claim has anymore merit than the clients claim that you held off on the trades because you didn't want to pay the ticket charges?  

Yes, I know my Vanguard to Fidelity example is both unlikely to happen and kind of picky.  In a more likely example, say a management team leaves BlackRock and goes to First Eagle to manage a similar fund.  Let's say you continue to hold the BlackRock Fund for whatever reason.  Then let's say the BlackRock fund underperforms by 5% vs. the First Eagle fund.  Maybe that year FE is up 2% and BR is down 3%.  Let's say it's a $1MM position.  Your client alleges that you should've followed the management team to First Eagle, and you didn't because you wanted to save the ticket charge money, so you should cover the difference in performance.  

Granted, these are simplified examples.  But you are creating a conflict of interest that you can't easily explain or justify beyond reasonable doubt.  Seems silly for $15 a trade, but if you have 500 accounts and you pay for both buys and sells, you're looking at a $7,500 kick in the junk to make that change.

It would have legs in an arbitration.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RIArules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 1:12am
Arbitration....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sportsfreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 7:52am
Originally posted by Redshark Redshark wrote:

I use two equity strategies. One is technical. One is fundamental. Interestingly enough, the have roughly the same turnover with completely different buy/sell rules. I have an ETF strategy on the shelf, but it doesn't fit in my current situation. I plan to add it after I make the move because it fills the gap in foriegn equities and alternatives.

Aside from that I have a simple bond strategy. Currently I combine the two equity strategies and the bond strategy into a single portfolio. The strategies are obviously weighted differently for different clients. That makes up 90% of my business, and I have some business in SMA bond accounts and some random business in mutual funds and annuities and retirement plans.


How do you handle block trades when you have multiple clients all with different percentages of the equity model and the bond model. That's something I am running into , my platform is Folio Dynamics
If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redshark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 8:26am
Currently we use a program called Charles River Anywhere. Not sure what they charge, because it's just part of our discretionary trading platform. It allows you to create multiple strategies. So say I have Equity Strategy 1 with 10 stocks and Bond Strategy 1 with 10 ETFs. The I go in and say my Aggressive Portfolio is Equity 1 with a 85% allocation and Bond 1 with a 15% weighting. Then you add other models and assign models to accounts. When you want to make changes to a strategy for example, I go into Equity Strategy 1 and remove JNJ and add MSFT. After the changes are done, I check off all the accounts I want to trade, preview the trades and send them to trading. It's literally about 15 minutes of work to trade 100 accounts across 10 different strategies. That's the easiest set up I have used.

The worst is well you just have to calculate how many shares you want to buy or sell for you clients cumulatively and then you have to put that order in as a block trade, and then got back into an accounting system and say client a bought 2 shares, client b bought 5, etc. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEEonly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 8:39am
Originally posted by helado helado wrote:



Originally posted by Redshark Redshark wrote:

Listen here Fuckowitz. If you want to whore yourself out for 1% that's your problem. If you want to act like some kind of fucking saint for charging 1% on top of a shitty 20 dollar commission where your clearing firm front runs your client orders, then be my fucking guest. But do yourself a favor, and don't act like you are doing it because it's ethical, or easier, or some other dumb fucking reason. Clients want simple. Don't ever forget that. If I want some used car salesman to go in raw on you for 1% and a $20 tip every time he gives you a reach around, that's your business.

Thanks for the welcome party.


Okay fuckstick, it's apparent to me that you need to learn the rules.

First, of the forum.  You are new here.  You haven't earned the right to be an asshole yet.  So you either get your shit together and respect your elders (and in this case, VERY elder), or you hop back onto what shitwagon you rolled in on, and good luck getting help with your situation somewhere else on the internet.  

Second, on your question.  You got the right advice, but failed to listen because you are a twat.  As an RIA, you will be a fiduciary when working with clients.  You will likely not have custody of your client funds, so you will have to pick a firm to handle that for you.  The main players are the discount brokers, plus Pershing.  They don't do this for free.  They make their money by doing trades.  $10 a trade.  You get the point.  They also do this through revenue sharing with fund and ETF companies through their "No Transaction Fee" or NTF programs.  Essentially, the fund/ETF company agrees to kick some revenue back to the custodian (Fidelity, Pershing, whoever) in exchange for the custodian not charging fees for clients (or advisors) to trade/hold those funds there.  Usually this means the custodian gets a 12b-1 fee of 25 bps, but that's not always the case (obviously with ETF providers that isn't the case). 

The custodians will also negotiate an asset based fee with RIAs for unlimited trading (i.e. every account can trade free on an unlimited basis, in exchange for say, 20 basis points annually of the AUM they custody).  20 basis points is .20% in case you're slow (which you clearly are).  

So if you are going to do the AUM fee arrangement, it's easy.  No conflicts of interest.  Trade, don't trade.  Stocks, bonds, ETFs, mutual funds, whatever.  You know you're giving Fidelity 20 bps a year no matter what, so you build that into your fee structure.  Say you charge 1.20%, Fidelity bills .2% for themselves, and sends you the other 1.00%.  

Now, what if you are doing the "ticket charge" thing?  SOMEONE has to pay $10 for every trade.  So as an RIA you can absorb it, or you can just have it bill to your clients separately.  So you may say "well duh, I'll charge 1.2% an absorb these charges for my clients, and I should still net 1.0%"  

Sounds great, until you look at the regulatory perspective.  What happens when your accounts are down 20% and a client finds out that you pay these trading costs on their behalf?  What if they decide to allege that you didn't move their money around because it would cost YOU money?  

That is bad.  That leaves you open to liability, even if it's not true.  So what do you do?  YOU aren't charging for trades (you aren't allowed after all, you're not a broker, you're just an advisor).  YOU are charging for your ADVICE, and FIDELITY is charging for TRADES.  So instead of billing 1.20% and covering the Fidelity trading costs out of your pocket, you charge say, 1.00% for your ADVICE and the client pays fidelity for their TRANSACTION costs separately.  

Make sense?  I don't care if it does or not, I'm just telling you how it is.  If you're smart, you'll STFU and listen to me because I'm a fucking genius.  But you aren't, so you'll probably ignore this sage advice and focus on the fact that I called you a shitstick (or fuckstick, whatever).  

But that would be unwise.  Because if financial advisors were cartoons, I'm G.I. Joe or maybe even Transformers, and at this point, you are My Little Pony.  

So get your shit together, learn your place, and MAYBE, just MAYBE we'll let you stay here and get an education about this industry that doesn't exist anywhere else in the industry, including the training programs at the biggest firms on Wall Street.

You're welcome.  




He aint lyin...
You ever take a dump that made you feel like you slept for 12 hours?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEEonly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 8:49am
redshark, im not reading through everything here, but I notice you are questioning rebalancing/trading portfolios. It seems like you may have a manual process as far as entering the trades and calculating shares/dollars. I use TRX to rebalance and trade portfolios. There is still a human component, but it works very well.

I see you got the same warm welcome I got.
You ever take a dump that made you feel like you slept for 12 hours?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:07am
Lol.  I missed the part where he called SF a Fuckowitz.  Awesome.

Sorry SF, but it was pretty funny.  It would be like someone starting a fight with iamlegend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redshark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:22am
Fee, thanks I will look it up.

I haven't meet a person in this industry who doesn't want to have a pissing contest within 30 seconds of meeting someone. Dogs sniff each other's ass. Traders, advisors and the like bring a ruler to a meeting to measure their dicks. It's part of the game we play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:23am
When you are measuring in feet, why would you need a ruler?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEEonly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:32am
Originally posted by Moraen Moraen wrote:

When you are measuring in feet, why would you need a ruler?





Well done...
You ever take a dump that made you feel like you slept for 12 hours?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEEonly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Redshark Redshark wrote:

Fee, thanks I will look it up.

I haven't meet a person in this industry who doesn't want to have a pissing contest within 30 seconds of meeting someone. Dogs sniff each other's ass. Traders, advisors and the like bring a ruler to a meeting to measure their dicks. It's part of the game we play.


That's right. It's what you gotta do when you find yourself in a vicious cock fight.

You ever take a dump that made you feel like you slept for 12 hours?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Moraen Moraen wrote:

When you are measuring in feet, why would you need a ruler?

A little Ed Jones coming out there?


Edited by knuk - Sep/05/2014 at 9:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wet_Blanket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Redshark Redshark wrote:

Currently we use a program called Charles River Anywhere. Not sure what they charge, because it's just part of our discretionary trading platform. It allows you to create multiple strategies. So say I have Equity Strategy 1 with 10 stocks and Bond Strategy 1 with 10 ETFs. The I go in and say my Aggressive Portfolio is Equity 1 with a 85% allocation and Bond 1 with a 15% weighting. Then you add other models and assign models to accounts. When you want to make changes to a strategy for example, I go into Equity Strategy 1 and remove JNJ and add MSFT. After the changes are done, I check off all the accounts I want to trade, preview the trades and send them to trading. It's literally about 15 minutes of work to trade 100 accounts across 10 different strategies. That's the easiest set up I have used.

The worst is well you just have to calculate how many shares you want to buy or sell for you clients cumulatively and then you have to put that order in as a block trade, and then got back into an accounting system and say client a bought 2 shares, client b bought 5, etc. Sounds like a nightmare to me.
I'm sure Charles River is extremely expensive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEEonly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:44am
At dean witter we measure success...one inch at a time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redshark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 9:48am
That's my guess too Wet_Blanket. Hopefully there is a comparable vendor in the RIA space, because that capability is valuable. I think they have some performance reporting that my current company strips out of our service. Obviously that would be a nice addition as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 10:07am
I actually like both of these new dudes (fee only and red shark). No homo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redshark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 10:19am
I like you guys too. Good times. I like how the guy before me who turned 700 into a million dollars by selling naked options or whatever the fuck he was doing, and wanted to use that as an investment model for people, ran for the hills. So to be honest, he was a pretty easy act to follow.

That guy will be lucky to get sued. Doing that shit for people is how you get murdered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Damone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Redshark Redshark wrote:

I love that you have to stir the pot to get you guys talking shop.

Explain this to me, and I know everyone is different and this is a generalization, when you are meeting with a potential customer, do you not explicitly tell them upfront here are the very rules on how your account will be traded. Here are the rules, and here is the frequency. Here are the conditions that we trade your account to meet your objective. To me, clarifying that upfront with the client, makes the double edged sword that you are describing less of a problem, no?

What am I missing? What would you prefer to pay for as a client, knowing what you know? 1% plus commish or 1.2 all in? Seems like a no brainer to me.

I simply say, there's a management fee of 1.40%.  Expect to pay $100 a year in trading cost to the custodian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2014 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Redshark Redshark wrote:

I like you guys too. Good times. I like how the guy before me who turned 700 into a million dollars by selling naked options or whatever the fuck he was doing, and wanted to use that as an investment model for people, ran for the hills. So to be honest, he was a pretty easy act to follow.

That guy will be lucky to get sued. Doing that shit for people is how you get murdered.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Welcome home Redshark.  We've been waiting for you (no homo).


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