15 years in business... Legal question
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Topic: 15 years in business... Legal question
Posted By: Careful Investor
Subject: 15 years in business... Legal question
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 6:27pm
I'd love to post this in the legal section but I see that it's blocked off for new users. My situation is pretty easy to explain so I'll be brief.
Inherited a client in 2009. Not a nice person. Difficult to work with, didn't often take advice, etc. Has managed accounts which have done beautifully. Also has muni bonds. Three were Puerto Rico bonds (see where this is going?) We discussed the bonds, often, and regularly. This is noted in my records. I did not buy these bonds.
Relationship was always touchy. Client called in 3rd quarter 2013, asked about the bonds. We discussed, client didn't sell. Client was advised to sell now if they could not take further volatility. Client did not want to sell.
Several discussions later, client demands sale of bonds. $10k loss from Par. Also demands bonds trading at 93 cents on dollar be sold. Total loss under $15k.
Two weeks ago called my branch manager out of the blue, and said I betrayed them. Made demand for their money back. Said I gave unsuitable advice. Mind you, client has large stock portfolio, which I recommended they reduce due to age (client is 86 years old.. did I mention inherited?) Also owns large positions in small cap funds outside of firm. They are familiar with risk.
Coming up to the question: Reportable event? Saddled on my U4? These were brokerage accounts, mind you. I didn't buy these things and I told them repeatedly they were weakest bonds they owned, and that they'd bounce all over the place. I argue it's a service issue, not a reportable one, but of course it's out of my hands. Their claim that I didn't call them about the drop is complete horse hockey, but of course the current rules regime doesn't care about the validity of the claim, just the nature. Merely curious if my 15 year run of a clean u4 is about to end. I am a very cautious investor. The lesson here is never accept someone else's dregs, even if it's a 2mm relationship.
Thanks, and sorry again for posting it here instead of in Legal.
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Replies:
Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 6:41pm
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I may be mistaken, and i'm sure if i am, Wet Blanket will correct me. But if he is claiming unsuitable investments, its a reportable event. He can take you to arbitration, but if you have good documentation, i find it hard to believe he could win (although with FINRA you never know) Did you take good notes in your contact management system on every conversation you had with him? If so, you should be ok.
I had a similar situation. Client that one of my brokers ( i was a producing asst mgr) said didnt fit their model and offered to do a split if i would manage the money and the relationship. Like an idiot i said yes. He did shit and totally disregarded my advice. He was an attorney for a securities firm (not a securities attorney, a contract attorney) and claimed that i told him preferreds were like money markets  .
One day about a month after we (me and my branch manager) denied his claim, i was contacted by my wirehouses outside counsel. They told me that they offered the client $5000 to settle (without consulting me) and he refused. They wanted to know if i thought they should raise their settlement offer. I went ballistic, and told them they obviously didnt read my notes that i submitted to Corporate Compliance. And that he should read the notes and then tell me what he thinks we should do. I also told him that if he offered them one penny i would sue his ass and my broker dealer. He called me two days later and said he agreed with me. The guy went away and never filed arbitration. I knew he wouldn;t because he was too cheap to pay the fees.
BUT - To your point, it went on my U-4. I think that since its a suitability complaint, its a sales practice complaint not a service complaint and its reportable. If he goes to arbitration, and you have good notes, you shold have no problem defending it. Although i know its not what you want to be bothered doing. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Careful Investor
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 6:46pm
TO be clear, and this is why I'm coming to this forum, because I don't know if it's a worthwhile distinction (although my Compliance Officer seems to), I did NOT buy these bonds. They were sitting, in the account, for years before this person darkened my doorstep. And this client NEVER sells bonds.
I'm glad you responded, since you have Branch Manager experience. Does this distinction matter? To me, it's huge, and to my CRO it's a big deal, but of course we're in the bubble looking outwards, waiting for a ruling from legal.
Thanks for the first reply!
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 6:53pm
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Again, i'm no expert, and have been out of management for 5 years (thank God). But i think that the distinction doesn't matter as far as whether its a reportable complaint. I think it would matter a great deal in the event of an arbitration.
I think as far as whether its reportable on your u-4, i think it depends on 2 things 1. Are you named specifically in the letter. If not, then the right manager would interpret it as a complaint against the firm, not the broker (if he goes to arbitration, then his scumbag lawyer will take you and everyone else into it) 2. Is your manager willing to protect you and fight with corporate complaince on your behalf to get them to feel comfortable not reporting it on your U-4 (maybe on the u-4 of the guy you inherited it from?)
I really hope this works out in your favor, i know how aggravating a bogus complaint can be. Please keep us posted. I also hope Wet Blanket, our resident compliance "genius"  weighs in on this. I would consider his opinion before mine.
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Careful Investor
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 7:00pm
I think your distinction has merit. I know the standards are lower for brokerage accounts than Advisory accounts, although I never thought I'd be in a place where I'd have to make that sad distinction. Any further advice from the compliance expert you mentioned would be most welcome!
BTW, this is thus far a verbal complaint with a demand to get $16k back (although the loss was $13k so where that number comes from... I am suspicious that someone coached her.) She is swinging to a NY office for my firm, which makes me think some rookie (or just a real dirtbag) has convinced her that I am pure evil in order to convince her to go with him. Good luck, buddy. If you're mortgaging your soul for a $2mm account, you're going to have a tough, tough career.
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 7:07pm
The only distinction that i know of between brokerage and advisory, is that brokerage account only requires you to make recommendations that are suitable, while advisory requires you to put the clients interest ahead of your own. In this case, the only recommendations you made were sell recommendations, they were suitable, and not taken by the client. If you get dragged down in this, it would be grossly unjust. But thats just my opinion
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Iamlegend
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 8:37pm
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Definitely reportable. I had a situation where a branch manager did something with a client of mine when I was out of the country. Client wrote a complaint which didn't mention me but it went on my u4.
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 8:48pm
Ugh. I hate this business when I hear stories like that
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/09/2014 at 9:19pm
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Yet another reason to do something else.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 10:23am
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Yep. Another reason this industry is a steaming pile of dogshit.
You: Sell these bonds, they suck, I would've never recommended you buy them.
Him: No fucking way dude!
You: Seriously sell them.
Him: Don't tell me what to do, I'm not fucking selling them!
Bonds drop in value...
Him: I want my money back you asshole.
You: I can't, you know that. You should've listened.
Him: Call 1-800-sueyourbroker. I'll fix you!
Your B/D: No, we aren't giving you anything, this is on you.
FINRA: Don't forget, this is reportable to the public FOREVER on the internet and on your disclosure for advisory accounts!
You: But I didn't do anything?
Your B/D: Yeah, he didn't do anything...
FINRA: TOO BAD SUCKAZ!!! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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Posted By: City1134
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 10:24am
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If I ever do leave this industry I imagine in some ways it'll feel very liberating.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 10:26am
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Yeah. It's kind of sad that my little rant is 100% accurate.
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Posted By: City1134
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 10:26am
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Just curious, if this does go on your U4 could you sue this cunt for defamation of character?
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 2:42pm
helado wrote:
Yeah. It's kind of sad that my little rant is 100% accurate. |
This, i agree with
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 2:47pm
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So, related to this, it looks like FINRA is actually going to get approval to require all B/Ds to post a link to Brokercheck on each FAs website. (article in Investment News, i read the hard copy, don't have a link). Which means any referral or prospect of the original poster, or me, or thousands of others who have done nothing wrong except maybe take on new client that they shouldn't have taken on, will go to brokercheck and get scared off.
Its amazing to me that FINRA either doesn't care about that, or has not thought it through. They cannot possibly be oblivious to all the bogus claims made by investors that simply made a bad decision and now 'want their money back".
Isn't there any way for us to organize and bring this to someones attention and get some relief? Such bullshit.
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 3:04pm
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I thought the BC link only had to be on the b/d website, not the FA website?
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 3:19pm
no. they are talking about having the home page on Brokercheck on all FA's websites
Fixed.
I miss Ilya. And I'm not him
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 3:41pm
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I... Can't.... Stop.... Laughing.
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 4:26pm
I typed without looking while I was on the phone. I wasn't drunk
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 4:28pm
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I don't really care either way because I don't have any dings, and I don't have a website. I assume that someday I will have dings with how the rules are, but by then I'll probably be out of business so again, I don't give a shit.
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Posted By: Careful Investor
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 5:46pm
Thanks, everyone, for the input. Well, doesn't sound good for me, then.
Can you sue for defamation and keep your job?
1) The amount of loss is under $15k but the client claims it's $16k. Demonstrably false.
2) It's a brokerage account, holding assets I did not buy for them. It's not an unsuitable recommendation; I didn't recommend the bonds.
3) I have on record where I told this person "Either sell the bonds now, right now, at $770, or be ready for further volatility. This is not going to be easy" They sold at 50 cents on the dollar, months after getting a letter from me, saying same.
At the crux is whether it's even definable as an unsuitable recommendation. If it's a SERVICE issue, i.e. why didn't I call them every day to tell them the new price of the bonds, then it's not reportable. I don't know what the rule is for under $15k right now. I have read conflicting statements on where we are as of 2010.
My compliance person says it's a service issue, and posted it to Legal that way. We shall see.
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Posted By: Iamlegend
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 5:54pm
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It is reportable simply because they complain. The merit doesn't matter.
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Posted By: Careful Investor
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 8:08pm
Well, no, I understand the merit part, but the straw that my compliance team is hanging onto is that it was a brokerage account, not being paid for advice, in other words, and I didn't make an unsuitable recco, since I didn't sell the bond. It's like complaining that E*TRADE didn't call you to tell you the bond you bought, unsolicited, had dropped.
Like I said, we'll see. Clearly, I want to believe they're right and that I'll be alright :) Doesn't help that I knew this woman was a bad person, and I have plenty of business. I should have fired her years ago. She's a liar and a nasty person, period. She took up scads of time and was a soul sucker, and being a professional for 6 years with her didn't stop her from turning into a problem when it suited her.
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Posted By: Careful Investor
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 8:09pm
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Oh, when I say "didn't sell the bond", I mean that I never bought it in the first place. This was not my buy. She came to me with it in her account already.
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Posted By: Iamlegend
Date Posted: May/10/2014 at 10:12pm
Careful Investor wrote:
Well, no, I understand the merit part, but the straw that my compliance team is hanging onto is that it was a brokerage account, not being paid for advice, in other words, and I didn't make an unsuitable recco, since I didn't sell the bond. It's like complaining that E*TRADE didn't call you to tell you the bond you bought, unsolicited, had dropped.
Like I said, we'll see. Clearly, I want to believe they're right and that I'll be alright :) Doesn't help that I knew this woman was a bad person, and I have plenty of business. I should have fired her years ago. She's a liar and a nasty person, period. She took up scads of time and was a soul sucker, and being a professional for 6 years with her didn't stop her from turning into a problem when it suited her. | It is likely the claim will be dismissed and found to be without merit, but the complaint will still be on your record.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 8:04am
Iamlegend wrote:
Careful Investor wrote:
Well, no, I understand the merit part, but the straw that my compliance team is hanging onto is that it was a brokerage account, not being paid for advice, in other words, and I didn't make an unsuitable recco, since I didn't sell the bond. It's like complaining that E*TRADE didn't call you to tell you the bond you bought, unsolicited, had dropped.
Like I said, we'll see. Clearly, I want to believe they're right and that I'll be alright :) Doesn't help that I knew this woman was a bad person, and I have plenty of business. I should have fired her years ago. She's a liar and a nasty person, period. She took up scads of time and was a soul sucker, and being a professional for 6 years with her didn't stop her from turning into a problem when it suited her. | It is likely the claim will be dismissed and found to be without merit, but the complaint will still be on your record. |
^This. Similar thing happened to me. Still there, staring me in the face.
I always get it out of the way. I have a print out of the whole complaint and dismissal. I highlight the areas where it says "This complaint was dismissed with prejudice".
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 10:55am
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I have never had a prospect or client even mention Broker Check.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 11:04am
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Yeah but it's on the disclosures (brochure aupplement/ADV) you give with every advisory account you open. If they sift through there and look at it it could be an issue.
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Posted By: BigCheese
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 11:13am
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Beginning to think RIA maybe the only way to avoid FINRA...for now.
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Posted By: City1134
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 11:23am
helado wrote:
I have never had a prospect or client even mention Broker Check.
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I doubt that hardly any of then know and off the ones that do, the ones that actually read everything,I'm guessing you're looking at a pretty small group of people. Just another reason I like c shares in brokerage over advisory.
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 12:35pm
City1134 wrote:
helado wrote:
I have never had a prospect or client even mention Broker Check.
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I doubt that hardly any of then know and off the ones that do, the ones that actually read everything,I'm guessing you're looking at a pretty small group of people. Just another reason I like c shares in brokerage over advisory. |
You would be surprised. There are a lot of people who hire an advisor but like to be involved or at least educated, about the markets and the investment world. Even if they are idiots, those people read Kiplingers and other bullshit publications, some of them watch Suzie Orman on Dyke TV, and other stuff like it. Those people ALL know about brokercheck.
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Sportsfreak
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 12:37pm
BigCheese wrote:
Beginning to think RIA maybe the only way to avoid FINRA...for now. |
This^^^. But the operative words are "for now". I don't think they've let go of the idea of overseeing RIAs. There was an article in Investment News last week about how RIAs are getting away with all kinds of shit, and have a very high rate of being non compliant, because SEC and states just dont have the resources to do as "good" a job as FINRA in oversight and regulating all of them.
------------- If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, then technically, you only had one piece
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Posted By: Iamlegend
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 1:15pm
under_complicated wrote:
Yeah but it's on the disclosures (brochure aupplement/ADV) you give with every advisory account you open. If they sift through there and look at it it could be an issue. | it depends on the type or $ amount of the complaint. My 1complaint doesnt show on my adv2b but it does on brokercheck.
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Posted By: luvindy
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 2:03pm
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I always like when the people that are writing the responses don't think through the fact that what they write will be published for all of the world to see.
A note...think partly about actually responding to the claim, but think more importantly about what anyone reading it will think. There is no restriction on what you say in your response.
------------- 8/31/12,Sportsfreak: "If Barak wins this election, or appears to be clearly winning, we are all fucked. Market will tank big time." Dow 13,090 S&P 1406 5/23/13 UC:Dow 20k before 20% crrectn Dow 15,
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 3:05pm
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Yeah my favorite Broker check is still Suze Ormond. Especially her response. Of that doesn't prove she's a hacktthen I have no idea what will.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 3:06pm
Iamlegend wrote:
under_complicated wrote:
Yeah but it's on the disclosures (brochure aupplement/ADV) you give with every advisory account you open. If they sift through there and look at it it could be an issue. | it depends on the type or $ amount of the complaint. My 1complaint doesnt show on my adv2b but it does on brokercheck. |
True. Is it 5k or 10k?
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Posted By: Regreprob
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 8:45pm
under_complicated wrote:
Yeah my favorite Broker check is still Suze Ormond. Especially her response. Of that doesn't prove she's a hacktthen I have no idea what will. |
yup, that was worth it. 
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Posted By: Iamlegend
Date Posted: May/11/2014 at 9:58pm
under_complicated wrote:
Iamlegend wrote:
under_complicated wrote:
Yeah but it's on the disclosures (brochure aupplement/ADV) you give with every advisory account you open. If they sift through there and look at it it could be an issue. | it depends on the type or $ amount of the complaint. My 1complaint doesnt show on my adv2b but it does on brokercheck. |
True. Is it 5k or 10k? | I think the breakpoint is 10k
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